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Virgin v Jeremy Corbyn: what rail passengers think of Traingate – as it happened

This article is more than 7 years old

The Guardian took the 11am London-Newcastle train the Labour leader says lacked free seats. Follow the updates on our trip, people’s reactions – and whether we got a seat

 Updated 
and Ben Parr
Wed 24 Aug 2016 12.30 EDTFirst published on Wed 24 Aug 2016 05.47 EDT
Sef, a passenger on the 11am London-Newcastle Virgin train.
Sef, one of the passengers on the 11am London-Newcastle Virgin train. Photograph: Martin Belam/The Guardian
Sef, one of the passengers on the 11am London-Newcastle Virgin train. Photograph: Martin Belam/The Guardian

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Afternoon summary

Martin Belam
Martin Belam

So what have we learned from today? Well, I didn’t struggle to get a seat on the 11am train from London’s King’s Cross to Newcastle, but that doesn’t disprove Jeremy Corbyn’s experience, and it doesn’t mean that the UK’s rail system does not lack capacity.

It is well known that there are sections of the network with capacity problems – it is one of the stated reasons for building HS2 – and no one regularly using Southern rail at the moment can be happy with the service they are getting.

Is #Traingate a silly season story? Absolutely.

Are Virgin Trains running a flawless system on the east coast mainline? No. And while staff implied our journey was pretty much the same as always, we did not prove that this route is not usually crowded.

Do people have questions about Corbyn’s media operation after this? Yes, they do.

Martin Belam trying out the floor as a seating option. Photograph: Martin Belam/The Guardian

And are they the same people who were already saying Corbyn was incompetent? Very probably.

But I hope this has made people think a bit more about the uses of CCTV by a private company running a train franchise on behalf of the state. And while lots of you wondered about live-blogging a train journey, I can’t think of a better place to interview the people travelling on that route.

Thank you for your comments below the line and contributions; I’m now off to catch the train home. I have not reserved a seat for the trip back, so fingers crossed.


Now, I could live blog the journey back to London. But I think that might be too exciting for you all. Here are some of the things you’ve been saying in the comments in the last hour

The point he was making (overcrowded trains) was valid. He could have chosen just about any London commuter train and won the case, but for some reason he chose an obviously not packed out train and the argument is lost. This is his problem or more likely his advisors they are not detailed enough to make and win a clear political argument.
The country needs a strong opposition to the Tory's not well meaning a amateurs that can't even arrange a political stunt.

Im a NYer and From my vantage point ,it sure looks like the UK media is closing the dumb it down gap with the USA. It also appears that the media is steering narratives rather than reporting. Can someone explain to this novice how a politician that bring s in hundreds of thousands of new members is the problem and the people who lost the voters are the solution?

He should learn to drive and experience the world like a massive majority of British people do. The horrendous costs (inflated by taxes), poor roads and traffic jams. Any chance of Corbyn finding out what the M25 is like? Zero. His idea of a road policy is cycle lanes.

He wants to choose the issues he has petty obsessions about (like giving back the railways to his union chums) but ignore the most important parts of transport that contribute to the demand for trains. And he has nothing to say on the fact that we will now be leaving the EU's transport framwork and regulatory regime. In fact, he is a total waste of space.

This event is a perfect example of why Corbyn has to go, I back nationalising the railways and I back clause 4 but done in a modern way, the problem we now have is these things are associated with Corbyn, and as such anyone attempting to actually bring them into force in the future will instantly be compared to him, the blokes a liability and he will make sure that none of Labours traditional policies will ever be heard of again.
He is slowly but surely killing off socialism in this country, especially when his little band of trusty followers refresh all of the things the public hated about the 70's and 80's, constant meaningless protests, harrassing anyone that opposes them etc.

Martin Belam
Martin Belam

I am reliably informed via social media that the two Adams that I met on the train earlier are definitely called Adam, and are well known as Adam Blampied and Adam Pacitti from WhatCulture who cover wrestling. I have to confess, I sat down next to them because I hadn’t spoken to enough younger people on the train yet, and they were one of the few pairs of younger people who didn’t have headphones on, which always makes for an awkward start to an interview.

Martin Belam
Martin Belam

We aren’t on the train anymore, but Tolpatsch say they are making the journey in the other direction right now.

Air con broken in one coach on the 15:00 Newcastle Kings Cross as we speak.

Plenty of "empty seats" but every single one I can see is reserved.

Assume I'm being watched by Branson as I type this!

Martin Belam
Martin Belam

So, if you are just joining us, I got the 11am train this morning from Kings Cross to York in order to ask people on it what they thought about #Traingate, Jeremy Corbyn, Virgin Trains, and the idea of renationalising our railways. We picked that because it was the same train that Corbyn got when he made the sitting on the floor video that Virgin are disputing.

I arrived at York around 1pm, and since then I’ve been reading your comments below the line, on Twitter and via GuardianWitness, and trying to reflect how people feel about the story in the live blog. Here’s a selection of recent comments:

Clearly there are times when the trains are "ram-packed". I bet Friday evenings are pretty bada because you have the mix of weekly commuters and weekend travellers all wanting to travel at the same time.

Not sure that a nationalised service was ever better at the really busy times.

My wife and I moved to Edinburgh in 2014, just before East Coast was taken over by VTEC. We travel frequently to London, and are able to get the best deals by booking well in advance, and using our 16-25 railcards (we're PhD students so still in full time education).

However, the cheapest ticket prices for Edinburgh to London have gone up by two thirds since 2014. We used to be able to find single tickets for £15.85 each way, no problem. Now we are lucky to grab a ticket for £25, which are the cheapest that VTEC now offer. Even booking well in advance we are normally paying around £35 each. The service has NOT improved (it was perfectly fine in 2014!) and many of the onboard facilities have been scaled back, such as the availability of decent food in the buffet car.

Regularly get on Virgin Trains on the old East Coast line and they are always very full, often people standing because the reservations system has broken. I have to buy tickets 3 months in advance to be able to afford them and, even in my well paying job, often resort to using the coach instead.

The thing I hate the most about Virgin Trains, though, is that their air con system runs through their toilets and so the coaches regularly smell of someone's fresh deposit. Only in the UK, where we've become so accustomed to appaling train service, can this be considered par for the course.

It was definitely, most certainly better when East Coast provided the service.

The reason why this is a big issue is that Mr "I dont do fake", " I dont play politics" , has done a fake story for political purposes.

This live blog is an absolute joke.

When there are wars going on, arms being sold, election fraud, brexit.

You're writing a blog on this.

Screw this.

Martin Belam
Martin Belam

In the comments, ACJB disputes what Zoë said about her boyfriend’s train experience earlier:

As someone who often (2-4 times/month) travels up to Edinburgh from KingsX on the 18:30 or 19:00 on Fridays I really don’t recognise this, at all. The 18:00 and 18:05 on Fridays are hell on wheels, but the later trains are fine. And if your boy knows when he is coming up in advance, surely he’ll be booking seats and super advance tickets (cheaper than the £135 off-peak return fare)? But walk up during peak on a Friday on the ECML is obviously going to be busy ...

Martin Belam
Martin Belam

That’s us told

Chairgate seems to confirm that nearly everyone in the UK has gone completely mad. Are you people serious over there? First the Brexit vote and now this. I know about your appalling newspapers but you presumably have heard that there are wars in the Middle East, a refugee crisis and a rapidly approaching climate change disaster to deal with haven't you? Give us a break.

Martin Belam
Martin Belam

I didn’t think to do this...

Went up from York to Edinburgh on a Virgin East Coast Train today.
When I boarded a smiled for the CCTV just in case Branson was watching 😏

— John Prescott (@johnprescott) August 24, 2016
Martin Belam
Martin Belam

Huge thanks for your interest in this live blog, by the way. Obviously travelling to York on the 11am train today was never going to settle the truth about what happened on Jeremy Corbyn’s original trip, but it has been great to get over 3,000 comments talking about the state of UK railways and Corbyn’s policy about it.

A selection of comments to give you the feel of discussion below the line...

My guess is that with re-nationalisation, Corbyn had in mind the quality of the state-run French and German railways and not the crummy BR. I think people forget though the relative low price of tickets under BR. When Virgin got the franchise, the costs for the Manchester-London route went up massively.

Some people see it as a stunt that has back-fired because Corbyn didn’t execute it well enough:

Surely this is yet another case of Corbyn missing an open goal. If he really wanted to highlight the problems on the trains, why didn't he or one of his associates to use Southern's Brighton to London line. They'd be lucky to find somewhere to sit on the floor!

Or that it is a proxy for the misery of supporting the Labour party at the moment

The very worst thing about #traingate is that this is mostly Labour ripping apart Labour. I do think Corbyn is on weak ground and it does look like he sat on the floor principally to make a point, when he could clearly have sat. Reserved seats are only reserved between certain stations and not if the reservee fails to show, just as Corbyn's own seats on an earlier train would be valid for someone else to have sat in. So, clearly, Corbyn has used this to (clumsily) make a point about our railways. Arguably, right argument, wrong way to go about it.

All said, personally, I'm not a great fan of Corbyn, but I can respect his mandate. If he is so bad, why not let his tenure run its natural course? The Tories had IDS, Hague, Howard...now it is Labour's turn.

Or that the spin angle on the story is being used to distract from very real issues with the UK’s rail services

I am disillusioned with Jeremy Corbyn, but the attempts to discredit him are a disgrace. He has a very good point about the utter shitness of train services in the UK. This is the real story here. I guess that it serves the establishment better to focus on whether or not traingate was spin, rather than confront this awkward reality & do something about it. Last week my Liverpool to Euston service had ONE working lavatory, the queue of people waiting to use it, including a heavily pregnant woman, was appalling. Seat availability and price hikes are phenomena that need to be addressed.

Martin Belam
Martin Belam

This is from Zoë White via GuardianWitness, who thinks trains are astronomically expensive, and the picture isn’t as rosy as train operators would like to make out.

Overcrowded trains are a regular occurrence from London

My boyfriend lives in London and travels every second Friday up to Scotland via Virgin East Coast to visit me. Although I never have a problem travelling TO London, 9 times out of 10 his journeys are on trains crammed full of passengers sitting on the floor of the isles and in vestibules so much so that if you do get a seat you can't get out of it for any reason during the journey. Trains from London definitely have an overcrowding issue - this doesn't apply to all days of the week or all routes but it's something that shouldn't be ignored by Virgin particularly when train travel is astronomically expensive and there's no deduction is price for overbooked trains. It's not right to charge people £135 to sit on the floor for a few hours. I 100% believe Jeremy Corbyn couldn't get a seat that day.

Sent viaguardianwitness

By

Martin Belam
Martin Belam

This comment from FridayWaits poses a good question about who has handled the situation worse...

So in short Virgin have -

a. Potentially broken data protection law
b. Shone a huge light on their shoddy service
c. Aggravated hundreds of thousands of very vocal Corbyn supporters that by demographic tend to be very active on social media.

Someone in their PR department really is doing a bang up job.

Martin Belam
Martin Belam

Alex Howard has sent this about being a frequent traveller on the same route via our Guardian Witness assignment on this topic. Please feel free to contribute.

A frequent passenger in York

I've lived in Leeds and York for the last three years but have family in the south, so I've been a frequent user of this service and can confirm that it's often pretty bad. If you're travelling in the middle of the day, in the week, and have pre-booked then it's usually fine, but lots of people aren't able to do all of those things. I've also been on this service mid-day during school holidays and had to sit on the floor (a very tired-looking woman with a child was sat in my reserved seat and I couldn't bring myself to tell her that her ticket was for a different train). Air conditioning has often been broken, no power to carriages for plug sockets, and I've been on services so disrupted that seat reservations have been discarded completely and it becomes a free-for-all. But this is all pretty standard stuff for train services across the country, I don't think it's anything special about Virgin Trains.

Sent viaguardianwitness

By

More on this story

More on this story

  • Virgin Trains did not break data laws with Corbyn CCTV release

  • Virgin broke own rules by releasing Corbyn CCTV, document shows

  • Corbyn adviser denies claims of electoral fraud over registered address

  • Virgin Trains 'teams up' with Labour to offer discounts (and a seat)

  • Traingate latest: Jeremy Corbyn gets seat on Glasgow service

  • Virgin v British Airways: was the Corbyn saga part of the old rivalry?

  • Virgin Trains controversy 'has helped Jeremy Corbyn's leadership bid'

  • Are trains in Britain as overcrowded as Jeremy Corbyn claims?

  • From the floor to first class, Britain’s railways are a disgrace

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