Boris Johnson tells Cage research director to defend victims of Isis

Boris Johnson has told the research director of the advocacy group Cage that he should stop “scattering blame around” over the actions of Mohammed Emwazi and stick up for the human rights of those who have been beheaded by Islamic State.

In an impassioned encounter with Asim Qureshi on his LBC phone-in, the London mayor said he should “stop crying Islamophobia” and focus on condemning the “sick atrocities” perpetrated by Emwazi.

Johnson told Qureshi, who had phoned his LBC programme: “I really, really think the focus of your indignation and your outrage should be on people who go out to join groups that throw gays off cliffs, that behead people who don’t subscribe to their version of Islam, that glorify in the execution of innocent journalists and aid workers. They should be the object of your wrath not the security services who are trying to keep us safe, Asim.”

The London mayor also used his phone-in on LBC to challenge a claim by Theresa May, the home secretary, to MPs on Monday that the abolition of controls “did not significantly increase the risk” from terrorists. May made her remarks after Labour said that the abolition of control orders, which allowed the authorities to relocate terror suspects, had aided terrorists. Control orders were replaced by Tpims (terrorism prevention and investigation measures) in 2012.

Speaking of the advice he has received from the police, Johnson said: “My information from the Met, from the people who look after us, who come to brief me about it is that they think the Tpim system did have defects and they want to go back to a system of control orders, which will allow them to remove people from their support networks. That seems to me to be totally reasonable ... On control orders: the argument that has been put to me is that we need to get away from Tpims ... and get back to control orders.” A reformed version of the relocation element of control orders will be added to Tpims.

The most electrifying moment of his phone-in came when Qureshi challenged Johnson after the London mayor accused Cage last week of acting as apologists for terrorists. The group’s research director had said that Emwazi’s detention and interrogation by the security services would have made him liable to radicalisation. Qureshi, who confirmed at a press conference on Thursday that Emwazi had approached Cage after he was sent back from Tanzania in 2009, described him as “a beautiful young man”.

Qureshi said: “I feel that our opinions on this matter have been somewhat unfairly represented. At the end of the day what this man has done is absolutely horrific. There is no way anyone can justify that. As an organisation we have made a commitment against arbitrary detention, extrajudicial killings and torture, regardless of the perpetrator.”

Johnson said: “What moved me to anger was the thought that you were claiming – and I think this is exactly what you were saying – that the fault for the radicalisation of this young guy lay with the security services. I watched you explain how he had been seeking ‘a career overseas’ and had been impeded by the security services in finding his vocation.

“Actually he was going off to join a terrorist group in Somalia ... I urge you, I urge you more powerfully to differentiate between people like Mr Emwazi and ordinary Muslims and not somehow instantly to cry Islamophobia or whatever when people criticise, attack, denounce those who go out and engage in such atrocities. That should be your priority.”

Qureshi said: “Boris, you don’t need to do that because the whole of the Muslim community is against these kind of [incidents].”

Johnson said: “I’m afraid I watched you very carefully during that interview and you were asked several times to condemn and to denounce what Mr Emwazi had been doing and the rest of Isil. You started off by instantly drawing comparisons with Tony Blair and Dick Cheney and all sorts of other irrelevant nonsense. Asim, if you are going to have an impact on the lives, on the minds of young Muslims you have got to focus on what these people are doing wrong and not immediately start scattering blame around. You have got to focus on where they have got their lives wrong – the false choices they are making, the false understanding they have of Islam.”

Qureshi said: “These things are extremely complicated. We never said that he was radicalised by MI5 to commit beheadings.”

Johnson said: “You did say that.”

Qureshi said: “No. Not at all. I never said that once. What we want is to understand whether or not the security agencies, their actions, led to him feeling like he does not belong to UK society. That is it. We never said there is a direct causality.”

Johnson said: “Please, please, please. I just feel that you have got it 100% the wrong way up. You need to see this thing differently. The security services are trying to keep us safe. They cannot conceivably be blamed for their actions in trying to prevent people from committing absolutely sick atrocities against the British public and indeed against innocent people in Syria and Iraq.

“If you are a human rights group funded by charity then you should be sticking up for the human rights of those who have been beheaded in Syria and in northern Iraq. That should be the focus of your concern.”